Scenes on the Plaza, October 1967
Here's a pair of slides taken by a photographer as he/she strolled around the Plaza on an October afternoon. Sorry the color is a bit odd, these slides had turned sort of purple, and I had a hard time restoring them to anything that looked normal.
First up is this nice shot of the Plaza Pavilion had been there since opening day, and, like many Disneyland eateries, was originally sponsored by Swift and Co. That oval sign to the left originally said "Swift". All of that gingerbread decoration is impressive, presumably all done by hand by old-world craftsmen who learned their skills building sets for studios. It's amazing that there is not a single person eating, or even standing around twiddling their thumbs!
Here's an odd one; a group of men, in suit jackets or shirt sleeves, seems to be walking alongside Baloo and King Louis. Maybe all of them are heading toward the Plaza Inn for a nice lunch. Could those men all be Disney "suits"?
29 comments:
They shouldn't have mixed up their Dektol with their Welch's Grape Juice.
The little boy admiring Baloo is all the cuter for his contrast to all the men in suits.
In the second pic, what is that red and white scaffold-looking structure on the left (under the umbrella)? It looks like there might be people on the upper level?
Aside from the "suits", there are very few people in these photos. I don't see anyone in the first pic. Not even a scrap of trash on the ground to go "tsk, tsk" over. (And only a couple of trashcans.)
Major, I think these are from Disneyland 2. You know, in an alternate universe.
Melissa, I had to google Dektol. Haha, purple tint... I get it.
Thanks for the weird (but nice) photos, Major.
Baloo and King Louie were brand spanking new costume characters in 1967! From the looks of that chain across the entry , the Plaza Pavilion won’t be open until lunch time!
I know yesterday I did a follow up to info regarding all the removed main st. Hitching posts and details - and mentioned some other changes as well as a few “returned” posts …. Regarding my park lunch yesterday … but another recent change has occurred to the Frontierland entry stockade : the replacement of new entry gates and a widening of the gate entry also saw the removal of the two gate signs “the Log fort” and “flags of the revolutionary war” . Gone too is the cannon , and all rifles protruding from the fort’s look out towers. The prop gunpowder kegs and boxes of ammunition, rifles and cavalry canteens are all gone. Replaced with uncomfortable amounts of prop sacks of beans , salt and oats ….. man that’s a lot of food being stored on those battlements !!! Seeing this today reminds me when I was working in early models for Shanghai Disneyland’s Westernland ( ultimately left out of the “land” line up) but in the design we could not feature anything with a fort , cavalry or guns ….. so the entry stockade was replace with a bridge and a dessert natural arch entry way ……
The “hard facts “ that built America are being erased from Disneyland…
“Plaza Pavilion,” with one “L.” I know Swift had already left by the time this was taken, but they weren’t the ones that got the “L” out of there.
I think a portion of the population thinks all Disney “suits” dress like King Louie and Baloo.
Mike, forgive me, but “uncomfortable amounts of prop sacks of beans, salt and oats” immediately made me think of this ad. On reflection, that may be my subconscious telling me what it thinks of those changes to the Frontierland stockade.
Was the “no forts, guns or cavalry” design parameter for Shanghai Disneyland’s Westernland a Chinese requirement (I know the CCP is exceptionally sensitive to positive portrayals of the US military) or something Disney imposed on itself? Just curious. I know former Imagineer Bob Rogers of BRC is very proud of the fact that the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum (well worth a visit if you are in Springfield) as delivered to the state of Illinois told the story of Abraham Lincoln - which necessarily told the story of the Civil War - without displaying a single, actual firearm.
JB, that structure that looks like scaffolding, is the Gantry Lift to the "Rocket Jet Flight Deck."
I'm assuming the House of the Future was still standing at this point, and just out of view (to the left) of the second pic.
I wonder if this was a weekday, based on the lack of crowds.
I'd like to think that Baloo, King Louie, and all of those "suits," were heading over to Tomorrowland to experience the Carousel of Progress, together. That's my fantasy, anyway. Hey, you all probably have your fantasies, and I have mine. Don't judge me!
Plaza Pavilion. One L. Like Laverne in Laverne and Shirley. This was such a pretty location and the gingerbread was "just so". Yes...all hand cut I'm sure. But ya never know- some of the fret work in New Orleans Square was rubber and not cast iron. Plaza Pavilion was one of those locations only open on high days and holy days- and Summer/Holidays when the Tahitian Terrace on the other side was in full speed ahead. The suits could be circa 1967 or 1985. Not much changed. Ties changed width-wise, but that was about all. There's one of those hitching posts between Baloo and the other one. I'm wondering if there are any photos of the hitching posts actually in use by a horse? Baloo is a heavy costume- that one took some strength. I remember mornings like this: the quiet before the storm. The red/orange and white scaffolding there on the right is interesting. At first I thought it was the Rocket Jets elevator...but it's on the wrong use of the PeopleMover tracks- or perhaps it's an optical illusion? Does Tomorrowland really NEED to be tomorrow? Or can it be the Tomorrow we thought it would be? Tomorrow is actually the last scene in the Planet of the Apes...isn't that what they kind of built over there in Frontier/Spaceland? Sacks of beans and rice. Well...it's a choice. Sounds like a lot of burlap to me. I get it, but sacks of whatever seems to be just lazy. Do some research- there are hundreds of choices- perhaps some amazing frontier plants. Pendleton Wool? Wagons filled with yardage!...
Concur with TM! that that's the Rocket Jets gantry. The angle is unusual, but if you zoom way in you can also make out the South Mary Blair mural. The gantry was on the southeast side (can't say "corner because the structure is round) of the PeopleMover/Rocket Jets platforms and was juuuust visible from here. Compare with this 1970 aerial from Daveland; the "suits" are walking about where the horse-drawn streetcar is located in that photo at about the 2:30 position on the hub. If you draw a line from that position to the Rocket Jets gantry, you can see there are no buildings in the way, and while there are trees along that sight line, they were pruned so you could see past them at ground level.
The Pavilion is now called Jolly Holiday, with a Mary Poppins theme, which makes sense. It’s a beautiful facade for sure.
An odd procession of suits, characters and a lone little boy visitor.
I think the red and white contraption is a hydraulic platform lift and there is some maintenance work going on right out in the open.
Mike’s info makes me sad but not surprised.
Thanks Major.
JG
The Suits are King Louis' security. He IS a king, after all.
Disney has made some "interesting" cultural decisions lately.
That info Mike shared was indeed sad but true. Cleared way are some of the things that made Disneyland the happiest place on earth. What's not happy about a cool cannon here and there. Seriously, all that stuff produced the environment that we all loved to hang out in. We took a trip to Fort Ticonderoga when I was about 6 or 7 and talk about cannons. I was in seventh heaven crawling around those things.
Looks like early morning. Probably was a weekday, TM. Looks kind of stark. They should be photos that you want to jump right in to, but I think I'd take the first pic from yesterday's blog over these for any day.
Thanks Major, for a glimpse of Bizarro Disneyland.
PS In the second pic, I think that fellow in the white shirt in the group near King Louie and Baloo has his tie showing below his collar in the back. Bad form.
Great shot of the Plaza Pavilion! Although Swift was prolific in the early days (sponsoring the Red Wagon Inn, Market House, and Plantation House), they never did actually sponsor the Plaza Pavilion. When the park opened, "Grand Central Concessionaires sponsored the double-L Pavillion. This lasted until around 1962 when Stouffer's briefly took over as part of the "Stouffer's in Disneyland" concept. That experiment didn't go over too well, and Disneyland finally took over itself shortly after that.
"All of that gingerbread decoration is impressive, presumably all done by hand by old-world craftsmen who learned their skills building sets for studios."
I thought Disneyland was all fake and fiberglass. ;-)
Thanks, Major.
Melissa, I don’t know what Dektol is, but I assume it is “good stuff”! I do love the body language of that kid, he can’t believe his eyes.
JB, gosh, that looks like it might be the gantry elevator up to the Rocket Jets load level, but… it seems way too close to the entrance! I thought that would have been quite a bit further back into Tomorrowland. But what else can it be? It is pretty strange that these photos are so unpopulated, but we know that there were some rare days when the attendance was only a few thousand people. Disneyland 2 is fun, but the costumed characters cuss like sailors.
Mike Cozart, it didn’t occur to me that the Plaza Pavilion would not be open for breakfast. Maybe that was only during the slow season? I assume October would qualify. Reading about all of those details and props that have been removed, replaced by “uncomfortable amounts of prop sacks of beans, salt and oats”… argh. So lazy and it shows a lack of “giving a sh*t” that is disheartening. I sort of like the idea of the entryway to Westernland being a natural arch, to be honest!
Chuck, yes, only one “L”. Thanks to cost-cutting, I’ll bet! Maybe they got tired of people telling them that Pavillion was misspelled. Even my computer doesn’t like it. Love that SNL ad, Phil Harman was the best. Funny you should mention the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Library and Museum, I just scanned a vintage slide from before the modern museum was built, but it still shows what I believe was one of Abe’s houses, circa 1960-ish. Sounds like covering the Civil War without a single firearm would be quite a challenge, but there are plenty of artifacts that can represent the war. How about a nice bugle? Much like your question about whether the Chinese required that Disney NOT portray the US military, I wonder why the Lincoln Library/Museum mandated that no firearms be shown? Is it because of the way Abe died?
TokyoMagic!, yes, I agree, that must be the gantry lift. Like I said before, it seems like it should be set back a hundred feet further into Tomorrowland, but obviously I am mistaken. Seeing these photos makes me want that darn time machine, so that I can go back to October 1967. I’ll be sure to get into the Baloo/King Louie photo!
Bu, I know that they used cast resin and fiberglass for some of the architectural details, but I’d never heard that they used rubber! Thanks for the confirmation that the Plaza Pavilion was only open on busy days. I am SO curious as to what all of those men were doing. As TokyoMagic said, maybe they were heading over to the Carousel of Progress. I have always liked the general idea of a “retro Tomorrowland”, and yet it seems like that must be a harder thing to realize than I thought. Funny that you should use the world “lazy” for the sacks of beans and oats, just like I did.
Chuck, looking at that aerial photo from Daveland, it seems incredible that the gantry elevator structure would be visible in my photo. Look at how far away it is! And in my photo, the red and white structure appears to be only a few steps from the Peoplemover track overhead. I guess I will chalk it up to an optical illusion, or the fact that I am drunk.
JG, that photo was from less than a year after Walt had passed, otherwise I wonder if he would have been walking the park with those guys? Smoking and cussing, naturally! I wouldn’t have it any other way. Well, maybe nix the smoking. Hmmm, a hydraulic lift is an interesting thought!
Stu29573, GOOD POINT! I understand Disney’s desire to not offend, though like anything it can be pushed to ridiculous lengths.
DrGoat, it seems as if the removal of details and theming is a common thing over the past few years, all in the name of “improved crowd flow”. I’m not sure what happened to make 70,000 people want to go the Disneyland every single day, but it has severely impacted the park experience. Hey, I’d happily jump into either the 1962 photo OR the 1967 photos! I noticed the tie as well, that guy must have put his tie on in a hurry for their “walk and talk”.
Brad Abbot, thanks for the correction, I meant to say “Stouffer’s”, but wrote “Swift” instead. My bad. Say, you sure know a lot about those concessionaires!
K. Martinez, I actually don’t know if that gingerbread detail was ever real wood, but I guess I assumed that it was, at least early on. Fiberglass sure makes sense, since it is a lot more durable.
You're right Major. I would jump into either one gladly. Along with everyone else here I'd imagine.
Tokyo!, I thought of the Rocket Jets elevator, but it didn't seem to be in the right location. I guess I got turned around. Thanks!
Bu, don't forget that lapels and trouser legs also changed width-wise.
Major, all the other 'suits' saw the guy's tie showing and shunned him for the rest of the day. Tie guy never knew why, of course. From that moment on, he was always passed up when it came to promotions and such. Later, he became a balloon vendor, wearing one of those silly Alpine/Pinocchio costumes with the huge bow ties... how ironic.
DrGoat, if I recall correctly, WED published a standard operating procedure (SOP) on how to do that. It's been a while since I looked at it, but let's see if I can remember the key steps...
Step 1. You think.
Step 2. You wink.
Step 3. You do a double blink.
Step 4. You close your eyes.
Step 5. Jump.
I also seem to recall something about this not working well in the rain.
Your mileage may vary.
I think tie guy actually has a camera around his neck...but if he was following unwritten dress code (depending on who his boss was) he wouldn't be out there jacketless...and perhaps if he took off his jacket his collar got all screwy. I do think it's a camera strap though. They are walking in a strange collection and from a strange direction. They could have been walking from the custodial office...but that's quite a lot of them...or probably...a team meeting in the Fantasyland Theatre, and now they are headed back to the ad building or going to the Inn Between for a smoke and breakfast. The gaggle is kind of large...they generally did not travel in that size pack unless it was meetings or whatnot...if they were headed from Frontierland or Adventureland they would have not taken this route normally- you would cut across the plaza.... They had to have come from Fantasyland or behind Fantasyland, but through Plaza Gardens, the drawbridge, etc. I thought one looked like Jim Cora, which is totally plausible, but he is holding a guidebook or something and I think he is a guest. I think he is asking the suits something which is why that first set of suits is looking at him- and his wife/kid/stroller...the other two suits clearly are lamenting about something ridiculous based on the gesture of the right hand and the "WHO" coming out of his mouth. "WHO needs a new Fantasyland? Didn't we just build a new Tomorrowland" "what are we? made of money?!"
I noticed the Town Square cannon has been kept, but it has been moved behind the lawn railing off of its niche space on the sidewalk…. The larger new popcorn wagon uses the old cannon space.
Regarding the mandate for no forts or weapons : that was a Chinese government requirement. The dessert natural arch was in all versions …. But the fort stockade would have been there too. There was to be no railroad either as the Chinese do not have a “romance with the rails “ the way the America’s , Europe and Australia does …. The Japanese have a string following of railfans but at the time of Tokyo Disneyland’s development the Oriental Land co. Wanted what was in both Disneyland and Walt Disney world .
Now why did the Chinese Government have no problem with a Spanish fort and cannons ???
The giant dragon in the dungeon that appears in Disneyland Paris was planed for Shanghai and that was the first thing to get yanked out - as China represents themselves as a Giant Powerful Dragon …. And showing a dragon , chained in a dungeon wasn’t gonna work.
While no railroad was included a area was basically set aside to add one in the future at one point - you may notice the entrance to Shanghai has a stylized elevated structure with a clock tower …… that can be easily adapted to become a “Main St. Station” for Mickey Avenue. I remember lots of comments from management while standing over the full model “ this size and no railroad !???! “
DrGoat, we should all jump in together!
JB, I’m still scratching my head over how that could be the gantry. But as I said before… what else could it be? NO IDEA. It’s funny, you joke about how “tie guy” was shunned, but I’ve heard some things about the “culture” at WDI, and I wouldn’t put it past people. It’s very “cliquey”.
Chuck, no wonder it didn’t work for me, I was doing the Hokey Pokey. For HOURS. How embarrassing.
Bu, it could be a camera; but I’ve also seen men with ties that weren’t properly tucked under their collars, so anything is possible! Maybe they were all returning from looking at something else… perhaps the “It’s a Small World” area. Did they do team meetings in the Fantasyland Theatre? One of them walks in (chewing on a toothpick) and tells the crowd, “SCRAM! We got a meeting, so make like a tree!”. I guess we’ll never know what was going on, but I like that the photo inspired so many theories.
Mike Cozart, maybe they needed to keep people from scratching their names on the cannon. You know how people are. It amazes me when I go to the Huntington Gardens, and find graffiti scratched onto the bamboo over in the Asian garden area. So stupid and juvenile. We don’t care who you are or that you have been there. Other countries love railroads, interesting that China does not. Good point about the Spanish fort and cannons! I’ve always liked the idea of the dragon in the dungeon of the castle in Paris. They could have done it in China and not used chains! He could just be living down there, guarding his treasure.
Regarding the subject of "suits," men's suits also had cuffs on the bottom of their pants/slacks, for a while. Late 60s or early 70s, I think.
Lots of good Disney info, yesterday and today. And some new(?) Jr. Gorillas. Welcome!
Thanks, Major.
Yeah that must be the Rocket Jets gantry lift … it’s in the correct 1967 colors … and you can see one of the curved flare side walls to the carousel of progress in the distance …. ( not the actual rotating wall ) ….. but I can’t figure out how it’s in the field of vision ….
Mike, thanks for the additional details on Shanghai Disneyland. That dragon decision is classic CCP thinking.
Major, I missed your question about “no guns” at the Lincoln Library & Museum. It was not a State of Illinois requirement - Bob Rogers doesn’t like guns. I was aware of that when I visited and chuckled a bit when I saw a pistol in a temporary exhibit assembled by the museum’s state curators. But I must say that he did a fantastic job of conveying the magnitude and horror of the Civil War without them. Plenty of representations of guns - photos, paintings, dioramas, animatronic cannons (seriously cool effect), etc. - but no actual relic firearms.
Looking forward to the pictures of Lincoln’s home.
Sorry to hear you got mired in the Hokey Pokey for hours. Hopefully you’ve been able to turn yourself around by now.
MIke, re: Carousel of Progress, if you look at that 1970 aerial and the position of the horse-drawn carriage on the Hub, you can see how it makes sense that a sliver of the CoP is visible behind the launch gantry. It’s a narrow window that would allow all of those things to appear in the photo, but the angle is just right.
Chuck and Mike, I have looked carefully at the Satellite view of Disneyland today and the wonderful Daveland archive versus the photograph.
The photo vantage does have a narrow slice of visibility deep into Tomorrowland, although it is impossible to see the locations of the PeopleMover track pylon supports from the aerial, which I thought might block such a view. So the red and white thing has to be the Rocket Jet gantry elevator. In 1968 photos, there is a planter and a guardrail around the elevator base, which appears to be visible in today's photo, but you have to see the view from the other direction to recognize.
The facade of the CircaVision building angles steeply away, more than you would think, and this is visible in the aerial also. I thought that facade would block the view.
A fun mystery. Thanks Major and everybody.
JG
Chuck, Hopefully you’ve been able to turn yourself around by now. Nice sentiment; that's what it's all about.
We talked about Tuned Mass Dampers the other day. I found a video of one in operation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJXThNHexJc
This is the supertall/superthin building I mentioned in that thread, 432 Park Avenue, NYC. (i got the address wrong in the thread, sorry).
This building has had a lot of construction/design defect issues, but the TMD seems to work ok.
Cheers.
JG
Way cool, JG. Thanks for the video.
And now I’m imagining a “tuna mass damper.” I think that means it’s past my bedtime.
Lou and Sue, as far as I can tell, the pants don’t have cuffs, so maybe this is a little before they added those to men’s fashions? No idea, on my part! Brad has been around for quite a while, we just don’t hear from him often!
Mike Cozart, maybe this is a case of a long lens flattening the perspective?
Chuck, thanks for the answer to my question about the Lincoln Museum. While the Civil War was certainly full of guns, I don’t think that they are the most important subject when discussing the issues and even the battles. You can talk about battles without showing the actual weapons, people get the general idea! Animatronic cannons, huh! I’m still Hokey Pokeying, but now I like it.
Chuck, somehow the angle of that casual shot (photo #2) managed to be *just right*!
JG, I do agree that the red and white structure is the gantry for the Rocket Jets, but looking at that aerial, I swear it appears as if the gantry is fully 80 or 90 feet from the Plaza. It sure doesn’t look that distant in my photo!
JB, I see what you did there.
JG, interesting video, I know I’ve seen footage of Tuned Mass Dampers before, they are fascinating. They are definitely used in earthquake-prone SoCal. I really dislike the building at 432 Park Avenue, but maybe that’s just me.
Chuck, you need a mass damper when your fish is out of tuna. I’ll see myself out.
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