I'm happy to present a Special Guest Post - the first of three - from GDB pal Steve DeGaetano. Normally you'd expect to learn some cool facts about the Disneyland Railroad, but for this Special Guest Posts, he's focusing on the narrow-gauge locomotives from Knott's Berry Farm, primarily in postcard form. This is right up my alley, so I was thrilled when Steve came up with the concept, and did all the work (which allowed me to watch more daytime TV and eat bonbons)! Let's get to it. Here's Steve:
While the Disneyland trains are personal favorites of mine, the trains just a few miles up the road in Buena Park are very close seconds! Knott’s Berry Farm’s narrow-gauge trains hold a special place for me, because of their amazing histories and because of how close to the locomotives you used to be able to get—close enough to feel the heat from the boilers! The big locomotives of the Ghost Town & Calico Railway also allowed me for the first time to closely examine the mechanical parts of a steam locomotive in operation, as I was able to walk beside the departing train for 100 feet or so watching the rhythmic action of the side rods and valve gear.
Though I predominately collect DRR items, I have amassed a small collection of Knott’s postcards featuring the trains. I have no doubt my collection is incomplete, but through these we can follow the history of this small railroad through the years. This isn’t meant to be a definitive history of the Knott’s trains, and actually focusses on the locomotives. Some of these cards are hard to date, but I’ll try to post them in a more-or-less chronological order. I am no Knott’s or postcard expert, so please feel free to correct me or add to the discussion! But first!
Knott's 1: I thought it might be fun for us to see one of the Knott’s engines in its “native habitat.” This is No. 41, Red Cliff, on the Rio Grande Southern Railway (RGS) in Colorado as she appeared around the time Walter Knott might have first seen her in the early 1950s. There are RGS history books that indicate the name Red Cliff was original to the locomotive when built.
Knott's 2: Red Cliff was originally numbered 409, part of an order of 12 identical “Class 70” locomotives from Baldwin built for the Denver and Rio Grande Railroad (They weighed about 70,000 pounds). The engine was re-numbered “41” when RGS bought the locomotive from the D&RG in 1916.
To my knowledge, this is the earliest postcard from the GT&C. Engine 41 and the passenger cars are painted in the predominately yellow and black “Bumble Bee” scheme, popular at the time and perhaps meant to tie in with locomotives in the movie “Denver & Rio Grande,” which would be released in May, 1952. The GT&C RR. was built in late 1951, and dedicated in January1952 with a “Golden Spike” ceremony. The engine has been converted to burn diesel oil instead of coal.
Knott's 3: This card seems to predate the Calico Mine Ride, placing it in the mid-to late 1950s. This also seems to be the most numerically available card out there, probably appearing 10 times for every other card, at least on eBay. We can see the first passenger car, parlor car Chama, hasn’t yet been converted to a combination baggage/passenger car. Chuck, I apologize, but you’re about to see MANY postcards of the locomotive in this particular paint scheme, which I know is a personal favorite of yours.
Knott's 4: I have no idea about the date of this card, and am unfamiliar with the western building on the left, but it does seem to predate the Calico Mine Ride as well. We get our first view of No. 40, then named Gold Nugget. I couldn’t find much history on No. 40. She, too, was part of the initial order of 12 engines for the D&RG, originally No. 400, but was later renumbered 340. Knott’s probably renumbered her to No. 40 to keep her in sequence with No. 41. Unlike No. 41, No. 40 wasn’t sold to the RGS and remained a D&RGW locomotive until purchased by Knott’s. I don’t think Knott’s purchased it at the same time as No. 41, but perhaps a year or two later. She’s mentioned (and photographed) in a 1953 Knott’s booklet about the railroad.
Knott's 5: It’s almost like no new post cards were made until the 1960s, but this may just be a gap in my collection. Hand-dated 1964, this card features No. 41, and even thought we can’t see the number, we know it’s Red Cliff not only from the paint job, but from the straight brass handrail across the front of the smokebox. Caption reads, “The Ghost Town Marshall at Knott’s Berry Farm gets a big assist from two of his ‘deputies.’ They have just captured the bandits who robbed the narrow gauge passenger train, the Ghost Town & Calico Railroad.”
Knott's 6: This next card is dated 1966, and features the elaborate, if not quite authentic, paint scheme that Chuck is so fond of, with a false diamond smokestack and box surrounding her cylindrical headlight. The caption reads “Old 41 pulling her load of passengers on her daily run steams and puffs past Boot Hill at Ghost Town at Knott’s Berry Farm, Buena Park, California.”
Alright! This ends Part One, with Part Two coming next Tuesday. MANY thanks to Steve DeGaetano for taking the time to scan his postcards and to do such an excellent write-up to accompany them. I admit that I am now feeling the urge to collect some of these postcards! I have some KBF cards in my collection, but I never acquired them in an organized manner. And of course Steve's context makes them much more interesting!






Steve-
ReplyDeleteThanks for creating this series of posts and sharing them with us. I do believe I have two of these images, but not the all-important commentary you've provided. I look forward to future installments.
Thanks, Major.
Knott's #3: Hmm, the Red Cliff color scheme doesn't look (too) bad here. In other photos we've seen, the brown parts appear to be a lighter, milk chocolate color, which clash with the red and yellow; but not as much here.
ReplyDeleteKnott's #4: I like the composition of this postcard. There's interesting stuff to catch our eye all over the place. The boy in the pink shirt has holes in the knees of his jeans, just like me at that age, and time. The little girl behind him, in the hat and blue dress, looks exactly like a toy doll.
Knott's #5: This is a cute card. I wonder if the Marshall's deputies have been potty trained yet?
Knott's #6: Ah. Here we go. With this lighting, the Red Cliff has its Hershey bar brown butting up against the brick red, black, and yellow ocher. I hope Chuck has finished his breakfast.
Many thanks to Steve DeG. for sharing part of his collection with us. And thanks to Major for giving us a place to see and comment on them.
What a great collection of postcards, showing Engine #41 at Knott's! I believe the buildings to the left of the tracks in the 4th image, is the "Bewitched Village." That attractions existed in the mid to late fifties, and I believe it was removed sometime in 1959, in order to make way for the Calico Mine Train.
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing your collection and your knowledge with us, Steve! I'm looking forward to parts 2 and 3!
Thankfully I was done eating when I saw these. I appreciate everyone’s concern about my severe allergy. Fortunately, I didn’t need to use my EpiPen this morning.
ReplyDeleteI know it’s not historically correct for either the era Knott’s is trying to depict or when the movie Denver & Rio Grande takes place, but I’ve always liked the “bumblebee” scheme on the D&RG’s narrow-gauge equipment.
The little deputy is awesome. If I’d seen this as a kid, I would have wanted to wear my sheriff’s costume to Knott’s in hopes of reenacting this scene.
Note that Red Cliff is not moving in the last shot. Smoke from the stack is rising straight up and steam from the cylinder cocks is just billowing around in front of the cylinders as well as behind. Makes sense for a publicity shot but doesn’t show true “action.”
TM!, thanks for the info on Bewitched Village, the inspiration for a certain mid-60s sitcom about a blonde beauty trying to hide her magical powers from the rest of the world. Not sure how they made the transition from the Old West to the space program, but that’s Hollywood for you.
Thank you so much, Steve, for sharing these. Looking forward to the next installment!
Thanks Nanook!
ReplyDeleteJB--Honestly, the colors from 41's early years are just so bizarre and un-railroady (is that a word?). You really see the difference when professional art directors are involved (like at Disneyland).
TM! - Thanks for the info on the "Bewitched Village." I had no idea! I'll have to check out "Knott's Preserved" to see if there's any info there.
Chuck - When I started paying attention to the Knott's trains around 1980, the cars were still yellow with silver roofs. I was immediately hooked on that color scheme and was even able to pick up an HO scale coach kit made by MDC/Roundhouse from the Ghost Town Train Shop!
Thanks Major for the swell into (and outro) and for hosting these images!
ReplyDeleteNanook, I sure am lucky to have Junior Gorillas who share their cool stuff (and do amazing write-ups)!
ReplyDeleteJB, I don’t feel quite the nausea that Chuck feels when looking at the Red Cliff, though I do agree that the colors are odd. Card #3 has an overall warm tone that probably helps to unify everything and gives it a “vintage” look. I’ve never seen card #4 before, and I like that it is such a good shot of the burros! I also don’t think I’ve ever seen card #5 before! I seem to remember that somebody (but who?) made a thorough database of KBF postcards, I wish I had one of those. I think it goes back to the days when people made their own lists and sold xeroxed copies. Like I said, Steve’s post has activated by collecting bug! Great!!
TokyoMagic!, oh interesting, now that you mention it, “Bewitched Village” seems like a good guess. Very neat. I just found a nice slide with a decent photo of Bewitched Village. When will you see it?? Not for a while!
Chuck, I was worried that you might have needed to go to Urgent Care after this morning’s post. “What’s wrong with him?”, they ask. “He saw THIS!” (shows photo of the Red Cliff). “THOSE MONSTERS!”. I also like the “bumblebee” paint scheme, you’ll see some really good pictures of that version coming up. I agree, the lack of action in that last shot is clear, but I guess the photographer played it safe rather than hoping to catch the perfect shot of the train as it passed.
Steve DeGaetano, those colors are so odd that I have always wondered if they are based on any actual historic railroad? I’d love to know how they landed on “red, gold, and chocolate-brown”. I thought I’d posted a photo of “Bewitched Village” on this blog, but doing a search only brought up the tiny souvenir pamphlet. Very cool that you could get a HO scale coach kit that matched the Knott’s trains of the time!
Steve DeGaetano, thank YOU!
Looking forward to reading this at leisure, having trouble loading the page here.
ReplyDeleteThanks Steve and Major, I love train more!
JG
Found a PHOTO (originally posted in 2011 by the Good Major) of that same Bewitched Village structure (please ignore the multicolored monstrosity in the center right of the image).
ReplyDeleteHe also posted a swell FLYER for Bewitched Village in 2017. It’s SWELL, I tells ya!
Major, I have hundreds of books on real railroads, and nothing comes close to those colors! Note in the last image the top of the boiler is painted gray! Talk about a full-on color mis-match!
ReplyDeleteWould be interesting to learn why they chose that “mud, blood, and crud” paint scheme.
DeleteMajor, you and all the Junior Gorillas are lucky to have so many contributors keeping the history alive. Thanks Steve!! KS
ReplyDeleteGrowing up the odd color schemes on RED CLIFF were always there and always very KNOTT’s…. The Tuscan Red / Box car red color was authentic… but I wonder if Knott’s was hoping to get a real railroad to sponsor the Knott’s Calico & Ghost Town … as the Red Cliff scheme seems similar to the 20th Century “SOUTHERN PACIFIC DAYLIGHT “ color scheme …. Who knows. Of course in the last 50 years Railroad historians have discovered actual 19th century steam locomotives featured sone very wild color schemes …. This practice lasted into the 1860’s and colors began to tone down quite a bit after the civil war. Individual locomotive names began to mostly be replaced with just numbers . In the 1950’s many locomotive restorations suffered the same incorrect fate as automobiles did by being over done in dreaded “RESTORATION RED”. Even railroad expert Wad Kimball was way off when he was selected to figure out the color schemes of the two reproduction locomotives built for the State Park Promontory Golden Spike museum … he went way overboard with RED …. RED … RED.. they have since been mostly color corrected based on information that surfaced over the last 30 years…. Including the fact the Central Pacific JUPITER was mostly blue and vermilion!!! In fact blue and “apple green” ( Southern Green) were two of the most common color schemes of locomotive builders on the mid 19th Century.
ReplyDeleteSteve : those ROUNDHOUSE- MODEL DIE CASTING coaches are being issued again as passenger coach sets … as well as an extra coach addition being available as well … they are being pre-ordered thru Athearn who bought out ROUNDHOUSE/MDC many years ago. The sets are available in HO and some road names in N scale …. But all are now RTR ( ready to run) as Athearn - famous for their easy to build kits stopped offering the models in kit form as sadly people were loosing the ability to build something … even with a screwdriver …. A trend greatly affecting the model railroad industry as well as model kit companies as people want everything ready at the “swipe of their fingers “
JG, I love train more too! ;-)
ReplyDeleteChuck, it’s driving me crazy, I can picture the old scan of Bewitched Village in my head, with a cloth banner hanging overhead - but I’ll be darned if I can find it with a Google search. Frustrating. Thank you for the link to the photo and the flyer!
Steve DeGaetano, ha ha, OK, well I was just wondering! There were a lot of railroads back in the old days, maybe somebody really wanted their locomotives to stand out. But… I guess not.
Chuck, I would love to know how they landed on that color scheme too, but I doubt we’ll ever know.
KS, I definitely know I’m lucky!
Mike Cozart, yes, the Red Cliff looked that way when I was a kid, and of course I didn’t think twice about it (or maybe even once). Did Knott’s Berry Farm use sponsors for attractions? I’m sure they would have welcomed some corporate dollars to help with the expenses, and I’m also sure that the old steam locomotives required a ton of maintenance. I have the feeling that a big part of the reason Knott’s had trains is because Walter K. just wanted them. Much like the other Walter! I guess there must be some sort of record for the colors of pre-Civil War trains, since all we have is black and white photos. Were there books with such info? Or maybe there were train fans back then that wrote things like that down. Blue and vermillion sounds striking (for the Jupiter), but I understand the appeal of red. Years ago I’d hoped to get my nephew interested in model building, but he was mostly into Legos, particularly Star Wars Legos. The frustrating thing was that I’d give him a $90 Star Wars ship, and he’d put it together in one day, and… then he was bored with it. ARGH.
Train *Lore*
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JG
Major: yes … archives have “builders plates” ( not the metal ones on the locos ) but art boards showing the color schemes …. These were the guides the locomotive paint and finishing shops used … but the manufacturers also made lithographs of them to send to customers and show them what was available . For many years it was thought that the colors were exaggerated to draw attention. … but order documents show these colors were indeed correct and the colors these locomotives were shipped with. What’s interesting about the CP JUPITER was 1869 newspaper reports that described the two golden spike locos and writings of the event from attendees…. And they describe wildly vibrant colors … blue.., vermillion …. Oiled rosewood cabs … Silver and blue Russia iron boiler jackets and oiled walnut wood and wine and “lake” ( lake was a bright red used for trim on horse drawn carriages … where the term “LAKE” came from for a red color is unknown) but when these descriptions came to attention - historians could tell the replica locomotives looked nothing like the descriptions ..with the aid of the locomotive builders order documents … ( the Jupiter and its sisters LEVIATHAN, WHIRLWIND and others was part of a group of locomotives ordered and all featured the identical color scheme …and a color guide plate for the WHIRLWIND survives .also the aid of digital chroma programs can “read” vintage black and white , and swipes to determine colors when selected colors are already know in the image. Today the promontory point locomotives are believed to be over 95% accurate to the way they appeared in 1869.
ReplyDeleteGreat train stuff here, Major! Kudos to your stalwart condtributor, too.
ReplyDeleteI don't have much to contribute myself, but I do happen to have a black and white photo of Buster Keaton at Knott's Berry Farm, simulating one of his famously dangerous locomotive stunts with one of these same choo-choos. I'll be happy to send it along for your next installment, if you'd like. I'm not sure of the date, it's from the 50's or early 60's, most likely.
Just tell me what e-mail address I should send it to, and off it will go!
Pilsner Panther— long-time viewer but not a contributor (yet).
Mike, the Daylight colors are red, orange and black, not brown, gray, yellow and red! The only similarity between the two engines are the horizontal bands of color.
ReplyDeleteSteve : yeah I wasn’t saying it was a direct lift or iteration of the SP Daylight … but that it has those horizontal band strips which are very 20th century … so I was speculating maybe it was to entice a modern RR as a sponsor … we know in the 50’s and 60’s the railroads were trying less to celebrate their old time past and focus on modern equipment and railroads ( which were slowly dying) by the time WDW was being developed Disney couldn’t get any real railroads interested in their old time narrow guage WDW RR. However in 1977 AUTOTRAIN sponsored the Walt Disney World Railroad.
ReplyDeleteBY THE WAY: DAYLIGHT RED and DAYLIGHT ORANGE were two colors created specifically for The Southern Pacific Railroad and were exclusive to that company.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Steve DG for these images and the notes, and thanks to all the commenters filling in more info. I finally got hotel wi-fi to work so I can see the pics.
ReplyDeleteI sure remember this train #41, but have no idea what color it was.
I do enjoy reading everyone’s stories and memories. Thank you for Major hosting the conversation, have a bon-bon for me!
JG
JG, I was just giving you a hard time!
ReplyDeleteMike Cozart, interesting, I guess I am not that surprised that records such as the ones you mentioned have survived - it seems that there have been “railfans” (or whatever they call themselves” for as long as there have been locomotives. And as we know, fans love every little detail. The littler, the better! I’ve always wondered about the “lake” term when tied to color; in school we would paint with Winsor Newton gouache called “Crimson lake”, a beautiful intense reddish pink. It smelled strongly of cloves, though I can’t imagine why. One person surmised that clove oil might have been used as a preservative in the paint. NO IDEA!
Pilsner Panther, sorry for my late respose! I’d love to see that Buster Keaton photo, I literally just finished reading a book about Buster (by author Dana Stevens) last week. If you look at my blog page, the “secret code” to contact me is right beneath the Moon Man. Thank you!
Steve, maybe there was still a level of inspiration, if not 100% direct?
Mike Cozart, I wish we had records for KBF that are as detailed as the ones for Disneyland. I know that there are a lot, and Chris Merritt accessed a lot for his book “Knott’s Preserved”, but I also feel like there’s a lot we’ll never know. Nobody imagined that anybody would care someday!
Mike Cozart, I need to create my own color. “Pepperidge Purple”??
JG, I’m glad you got the hotel wifi to work. I’ve been there, my regular San Luis Obispo hotel is nice, but man the wifi is crummy. I have to resort to reading books, if you can believe it.
I'm very late to this party, but want to say thank you, as I very much enjoyed looking at them today. Pictures don't do these trains justice. When you stand next to them, they are massive, and oooozeee power. It is actually startling when an old diesel train engine pulls up to the commuter rail station...you can feel it in your chest. Instills a controlled kind of fear....can't explain it, but the feeling was the same in the propeller box at the Queen Mary: A box built outside the hull where you could see the propeller lit up...and it was huge...and it was beyond creepy walking through there....this massive thing underwater...very disconcerting...maybe I'm just a chicken :) Thanks Steve and Major!
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