Knott's Berry Farm Trains in Black and White
Today I have a nice scan from a large-format black and white negative featuring one of the Knott’s Berry Farm locomotives - old #41. It was originally built in 1881 by the Baldwin Locomotive Works (in Philadelphia) for the Denver and Rio Grande Railroad, where it was locomotive #409. In 1916, it was sold to the Rio Grande Southern and changed to #41.
This photo must have been taken shortly after the Knott’s trains made their debut in 1952. It appears to have a different paint scheme here, it might be “Rio Grande Gold”, used by the Denver and Rio Grande at the 1949 Chicago Railroad Fair. It was later painted in Chuck’s favorite color combination of black, brown, vermillion, and gold. Wikipedia says The engine was fitted with a diamond stack (that was the wrong shaped diamond) and an overly gaudy paint scheme. I’m not really sure what that structure just behind the train is supposed to be; It almost seems to be positioned to help fuel or water the locomotive, but… ??
It should also be noted that at this time, the Calico Mine Train had not yet been built, so the tall lights that can just be seen were used to illuminate the Arena, used for displays of horse-riding skills and acrobatics.
I like the little device added saying "Ghost Town Express - California". It looks like the tender is heaped with large chunks of coal; it was soon converted to an oil-burner.
Here's a contemporary photo of what is now the Walter K, restored to its 1940s appearance (though apparently not accurate to the 1880s version for some reason). In 2016, it... underwent a major overhaul at the Durango & Silverton Narrow Gauge Railroad (D&SNG) in Durango, CO. Following the completion of the overhaul, it underwent some test runs to and from Durango and Silverton, CO and was later moved back to the Knott's Berry Farm amusement park on December 6, 2023 to return to service on the Ghost Town & Calico Railroad.
14 comments:
Perhaps that mystery structure behind the train was used for the arena shows? Announcers maybe? Although, it looks like it might be outside the boundary of the arena.
I see you supplied a convenient link for Chuck to gaze lovingly upon his favorite color scheme for this engine. Brown- the color of dirt and... other stuff. I think it's the inclusion of the brown paint that puts it over-the-top, breaks the camel's back, and makes it a bridge too far. (Any other metaphors to add to this mix?) :-p
Thanks for letting us play with your trains, Major.
I should not have clicked on that link while eating breakfast. Does anyone want the rest of my oatmeal?
I love seeing #41 in the “bumblebee” paint scheme (even in black & white), but it confuses me a bit. That locomotive ran on the Rio Grande Southern, which was a different railroad than the Denver & Rio Grande Western, which used the “bumblebee” scheme. I’m wondering if perhaps the tender came from a D&RGW locomotive and they painted the cab at Knott’s to match. I’m sure it all makes sense, I just don’t have the full history and no time to research right now. Hopefully somebody else here (Steve? Mike?) can fill in the blanks.
Thanks, Major!
That's a great pic! I'm curious about that little building, too. I also want to know what it cost to transport the train's engine to Durango, Colorado, and back!
Thanks, Major!
The tender appears original, based on the piping to the air tank on the rear of it.
The movie “Denver & Rio Grande” came out in 1952, which featured a couple engines in the yellow and black “bumble bee” paint scheme, so they were probably just capitalizing on that free publicity.
I’m not sure when the engine was converted to oil. I can’t imagine it entered service at Knott’s as a coal burner, but maybe! The coal may have been there just to give the illusion of it being a coal burner.
In my collection, I have a 1938 inspection report from the RGS for engine 41. Picked it up on eBay for $10 bucks. Almost like folks didn’t know what it was!
The fact that the crew even got permission to “backdate” the engine to its (mostly) 1940s appearance was a major coup for an amusement park, being that black and silver is kinda dull. Backdating it further would have altered the engine significantly.
Major, it’s 1880s appearance would have been much different in several respects; for instance, the smokebox was shorter (in your closeup of the front of the engine, you can see the weld bead for the welded-on extension right under the headlight). The extension contained spark arresting netting, which meant they could then use a straight “shotgun” stack, instead of a diamond stack with spark arresting apparatus inside the “diamond.” It would have had a diamond stack and box headlight, and a much smaller wooden cab.
When the D&RG took possession of the engine in 1881, it was named “Red Cliff,” which is why I am disappointed that they renamed the engine.
Ah Number 41! She strikes s fine pose!
As much as I like Disneyland's small engines (and I like them a lot), Knott's had the edge on realism to me as a kid. For example, I can remember being impressed with the Knott's trains on my trip in '73, but not as much by the Disney trains.
Now that Steve has pointed out the extension, I can see it clear as day, and I approve. I've always been more of a straight stack man, since the diamonds always looked a little TOO old timey to me. In fact, my favorite engines are the later streamliners, where there was little stack at all. They have a "film noir" feel that I really appreciate. Hmmm "Train Noir?" I think I just invented something...
Thanks, Major!
I forgot to say Thanks, Major, Great pictures today!
No. 41 also holds a special place in my heart, partially because you could get so close to the engine—close enough to feel the heat from the boiler and firebox. I remember walking alongside the engine after it started moving, and watching all the rods and “monkey motion” of the valve gear operating inside the frame of the engine, between the wheels. Fascinating.
At Knott’s, you used to be able to place pennies or nickels on the rail, and after the train passed, you might have a paper-thin smashed coin! If it didn’t stick to one of the wheels and disappear down the line, that is.
And that whistle was so loud!! They weren’t shy about blowing that thing wide open, like they are at DL.
Thanks again Major.
Since I love trains and know next to nothing about them, I enjoy these posts where the GDB experts come out with the goods. Thank you!
I saw some pics recently of that color scheme of which Chuck is so fond, it is an odd combination to be sure. I wonder if it was done in increments with leftover paint so no one cared what the outcome would be?
All I can contribute today is that the wooden structure has sliding doors that would open the side, we can see the overhead tracks but the door panels are in the closed position.
Thanks Major!
JG
Thanks for all of the additional info, Steve. The fact that the Knott's trains were right there in the midst of the crowd made the experience of interacting with them very different than Disneyland's perimeter (and sometimes elevated) track layout. I remember feeling the heat coming off the locomotives and listening to them "tick" as the temperature changed.
Here's a photo of what GT&C #41 looked like in 1906:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ocarchives/4724264903/in/photostream/
The locomotive began life in 1881 as D&RGW #409. It was sold to the RGS and renumbered to #41 in 1916. It never asked to be repainted brown, vermillion, and gold.
Thanks for the 1906 photo, Chuck.
Major mentioned the engine was recently overhauled in Durango. Be sure to check out YouTube (just Google "RGS 41 Durango") for some seriously amazing footage of the crew opening her up on her native rails. She'll never run that fast at Knott's!
JB, the mystery structure might very well be for the arena shows, though the part facing us (and away from the arena) seems to be the “finished side”. So I’m not sure! I know it is cruel to show a photo of the train in that color scheme, but Chuck didn’t have to click on the link!
Chuck, your observations are cogent and peripatetic (OK, maybe not peripatetic, but you have to admit that it’s an impressive word) as usual. As for the apparent disparities, I can offer only a bowl of Werther’s candies.
TokyoMagic!, since rail transport was much more common (for everything), I wonder if they actually put the train on a track and “drove” it to Knott’s? Probably not, I’m guessing it was put on a flatbed car and hot-glued down for the trip.
Steve DeGaetano, interesting to think that the coal in the tender might have just been piled up for looks (on top of a tank of oil, presumably). I would assume that very few people would have had the knowledge to realize the significance of that 1938 inspection report! I will offer you $14, that’s a profit of (counts on fingers) FOUR dollars. Do you think that the extension of the smoke box was done for Knott’s? Or was this a not-that-uncommon modification at that time? If they’d used JB Weld, they could have saved a lot of money. I concur that “Red Cliff” is a pretty awesome name.
Stu29573, I understand the logic of Disneyland’s 5/8 scale locomotives, and I do love them, but the larger Knott’s locos are impressive! They just look huge when you’ve been used to the little Disneyland versions. To me, the diamond stacks are the “classic western” look, even if it’s not necessarily so. That’s what years of movie and TV watching will do. The streamliners are pretty cool, I’m imagining a Disney park with trains that were styled after 1930s models - I like the idea!
Steve DeGaetano, you really can get close to the engines at Knott’s; now they have a gate to keep people from being squished in Calico Square, but it doesn’t keep them at a far remove. “Monkey motion”, my favorite dance. We lived near railroad tracks when I was a kid and had plenty of coins smashed - we were told that they might derail a train, but my guess is that the story was mostly an attempt to keep children from playing on the tracks!
JG, I have a few color photos of #41 with its original paint scheme, to me it feels classic and dignified. The later color scheme is just weird. It doesn’t make me physically ill, though! I feel dumb because I am not seeing the overhead tracks, at least not clearly. If they are there, I still don’t know what purpose that structure would serve!
Chuck, it is astonishing that the Knott’s train went right through busy Calico Square, with nothing between soft squishy people and many tons of steel. I confess that it was my idea! “Don’t spend money on gates, daddy-o!”. Walter Knott loved it when I called him “daddy-o”. Thanks for the link to that great picture.
Steve DeGaetano, those old locomotives look like they were worked HARD.
Major, smokebox extensions were pretty common as engines converted over from wood fuel to coal.
Diamond or balloon stacks indicate that the engines were originally wood burners; when 41 converted to coal, probably in the 1890s or so, the smokeboxes were extended, and the spark arresting netting was installed there. There isn’t as many sparks with coal, so didn’t need the elaborate smokestack. The straight shotgun stack allowed the exhaust to be ejected without much interference, helping the engine “draft” better (more air though the fire for more efficient combustion).
And no, a nickel is not going to derail a 40-ton steam locomotive!
Maybe not a peripatetic, comment but a perspicacious one
Steve DeGaetano, thank you for the info. Why was that netting arrested? (Sorry, I couldn't resist). We never managed to derail a freight train, even when I squashed some Knott's Berry Farm tokens that were about the size of a half dollar (perhaps a little smaller)! I still have one or two of those flattened Knott's tokens in a box somewhere.
Dean Finder, "perspicacity" is one of my favorite words!
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